Welcome Intersection Improvements

I would like to see a whole-life cost analysis of both possible improvements; capital investment (breakdown of tax and development funded), and annual operating and maintenance costs - aggregated over 50 and 100 years. The grades at that intersection could create some challenges, please include any land acquisition costs as part of the capital investment

I consider the existing 3 way stop dangerous especially when someone unfamiliar with it approaches from the West.
I am happy with any option other than what is currently there.

4 way stop lights, roundabout or 4 way traffic lights.

I have appreciated reading what others have to say.

I travel through this intersection four times a day during rush hour in the morning (7:45-8:15 am) and in the evening (3:45-4:15 pm). I travel westbound going straight, then eastbound and make a right in the morning. In the afternoon I make a left heading west and then shortly after go straight heading east.

Because of the unusual nature of the 3-way stop and poor signing there are consistent daily problems and there is confusion from other drivers about who has the right of way.

Something definitely needs to be done about this intersection.

I support better signing for drivers in all directions informing them about right of way. I understand concerns about stopping on the hill at traffic lights and difficulty for farm vehicles but the current set up is NOT safe. I feel that every time I come through the intersection I need to pay very close attention, communicate with other drivers through hand signals and have my hand on the horn.

As difficult as it may be, I support the idea of a roundabout. Perhaps levelling out the hill so it is not so steep would also help. Or, changing it from a 3-way stop to a 2-way (north-south stop) allowing east and west traffic to move more freely.

I'm very much in favour of a round about for a lot of reasons. ..


Roundabouts are increasingly becoming more popular due to the benefits that they provide. These benefits include dramatic reductions in serious injury and fatality crashes as well as reductions in delay for road users. Benefits of modern roundabouts have been shown to occur in both urban and rural areas under a wide range of traffic conditions.

Safety
- Fewer crashes, 90% fewer fatalities and 75% fewer injuries
- Fewer severe crashes
- 10 to 40% fewer pedestrian/bicycle crashes
- Roundabouts are safer for beginner and elderly drivers
Time Savings
- 30 to 50% increase in traffic capacity for intersection, less delay waiting at stops and signals
Environmentally Friendly
- Reduces pollution (from cars not waiting at traffic signals), reduces noise, reduces fuel consumption
- Roundabout islands can be landscaped with native plants and trees
- Roundabouts generally take less land than traditional intersections as they don't require turning lanes
Saves Money
- Without traffic signals, no cost for traffic signals and yearly maintenance
- Intersection still operates in power outages, no need for police to direct traffic
- Roundabouts can help improve sales at nearby businesses across the country as more people can walk or easily drive to locations compared to traditional intersections
- Can act as a marker to a business or downtown district

I can see the appeal: 3-way stops can be confusing – especially to those who aren’t paying particular attention to signage, or those who don’t understand common driving procedure. But some people's inability to drive or read signage does not justify wreaking havoc for those of us that need this to remain a 3-way stop.

An uphill stop may be fine for people puttering about on a scenic country drive with automatic SUVs and cars. It would be rather irksome to those of us who drive vehicles with manual transmissions. Most significantly, however, it would render this intersection entirely unusable for those that must frequently haul heavy loads through that intersection.

Starting from a stop facing uphill in an automatic car? Easy. Starting from a stop with 15 tons of grain behind you? Not so great. Hope Township is still a largely-agricultural community, and you simply cannot expect farm equipment to handle an uphill stop.

And then there’s transport trucks, which already have a tough time maintaining traction up that slope – especially in inclement weather.

There was a case of this several years ago, when the Eastbound 401 was closed in the evening for construction during a snowfall. All traffic was diverted to Highway 2 and through this intersection. Throughout the night, occasional Eastbound drivers would stop at the intersection – not realizing this wasn’t required. Every time a driver stopped they did not have enough traction to get started again, and a local farmer who lives nearby spent much of the night towing stopped drivers up the hill and around the corner with his tractor, until two tow-trucks arrived to relieve him. Vehicles were backed up for miles. If changed to a 4-way stop, this would be the case during every snowfall.

A roundabout is a slightly better, though still very poor option. There simply isn't the room. There was a great letter written to the editor in the Northumberland News several years ago by a former Scottish planner. In it, he commented how ridiculous were most of the attempts by North Americans to create roundabouts - citing the disasters in the Cobourg industrial park and on Highway 28 as examples. Roundabouts do work well, when there is enough room, and when they have been properly planned, but a roundabout of sufficient scale for this intersection to handle large equipment and transport trucks without requiring drastic slow-downs or stopping would need two houses, a gas station, and a church to be moved.

It irks me quite a bit that this has been brought up repeatedly, and every time it's considered the public works department and Port Hope council seem surprised that there's opposition to change. It shows a certain, close-minded lack of consideration when a few urbanites, ambling around the countryside, get a little confused by this three-way stop and assume it has to change to cater to their own driving ineptitude.

The decision to make this a 3-way stop when the road was first planned wasn't arbitrary; it was decided with good reason. Those reasons are just valid today as they were then.

Forcing farm machinery or highway trucks to stop from the east, especially in wet/icy conditions, is a recipe for disaster. The intersection in Welcome is pretty unusual and likely intimidating to out-of-towners. Why not focus on improved communication/instruction? The "3-way" signs under the stop signs now are pretty easily missed. I think the best solution to improve the intersection is to remove any doubt or uncertainty to drivers who are trying to navigate their way through.

I don't have an issue with the current configuration.

No stopping for eastbound HWY 2 traffic avoids eastbound stopped vehicles unable to obtain uphill traction in winter. 

I like roundabouts but one at that intersection will introduce the aforementioned issue of eastbound vehicles pausing or slowing for roundabout traffic in winter.

I think an all-way stop will introduce an additional safety issue. The majority of drivers seem to be unaware of how the "Right" of way is supposed to work at 4-way intersections.

The only change I would consider (if there has to be one) would be no stopping for eastbound and westbound traffic, with stop signs only on north/southbound traffic.

I have a far greater concern for the HWY 401 eastbound exit 464 where it meets Rose Glen Road. When you follow eastbound exit 464  onto the westbound lane of Rose Glen Rd. (bypassing the traffic light), you literally have to look out your left rear (or rear) window to check for westbound traffic on Rose Glen Rd. to see when it's safe to merge. Westbound traffic could be approaching the intersection on Rose Glen Rd., or a vehicle could be turning west at the stoplight (depending on the traffic light), or some driver could even arrive off 401 at the stoplight and decide to turn westbound. 

I curse the roadway design engineer every time I exit HWY 401 at exit 464.    

I am delighted to hear the County is looking to address this intersection. It has bothered me for years. Very dangerous. I would think that 3-way stops at 4-way intersections in general are quite a safety problem, and this one also has challenging grades and alignments. I see this intersection has a long history. Sadly, only recently it seems has Ontario been warming up to roundabouts as this could have solved the problem decades ago. Both solutions will likely bring improvements, but I am especially interested in the roundabout solution (if it can indeed fit). A roundabout will guarantee drivers slow down without requiring oversized stop signs with flashing beacons and the like, and it will also allow for a narrower streets on all 4 approaches (auxiliary lanes no longer needed). This would be a wonderful outcome for many reasons, especially safety. It will look great as well with all the extra space for landscaping and/or sidewalks, and less asphalt. While we're at it can we replace the signals to the east along Dale Rd with roundabouts? ;-)

1 I would like to know what has changed since 20 plus years ago when the question was asked about putting in lights or a four way stop at this intersection and we were told that trucks and farm vehicles would not be able to manage going east in icy weather.
2 I have seen cars having problems going south on 10 when the intersection is icy as there is an unusual crossing incline Taking the two above problems how do you expect to provide a safely graded round about?

3 the round about at 28 and Ballieboro at the widest is 140 ft and the large vehicles have to slow down to less than the posted speed limit of 40k to make it and that is on a flat grade.

Cambridge has two roundabouts on Can- Amera Pkwy the one that is 1 .03 k from the 401exit is is about 195 ft radius of 97 ft across it is nearly flat if not flat and has 3 spokes, the second one at Can -Amera and Conestoga Blvd is smaller at 165 ft radius 82.5 ft with 3 spokes, not the four that Welcome would have ,on a hill, again the question is how do you expect to provide a safely graded roundabout and how large would it be?
None of the above roundabouts are dividing a residential area in four . This could demolish all feeling of being a village.

Will you show diagrams showing how you hope to achieve this on the 14th? I have looked at a 92 ft radius that would greatly impinge on the northeast and south west properties this also would cause more problems with the sewer and other work that was just completed.I tried to attach the diagram but your soft wear would not allow it.

I agree with Level 2 that more signage would be the way to proceed. I look forward to your answers

Local councils have been trying to make the Welcome intersection safer since the mid seventies.
MTO spent over a million dollars and just made it worse. The County then tried to repair it at a cost of over a million dollars . But without any improvement. In the end it became a 3 way stop . This very much improved the safety of this intersection.
I think the intersection is a good as it can ever be given the poor site lines.
If better signage was installed then it could help people understand the intersection better.
I don’t believe spending millions more of taxpayers dollars can make this intersection any safer.
Paul & Lori Andrus

I am not impressed that a narrow choice of unimpressive approaches has been made BEFORE seeking input or doing a feasibility study. I’ve been using this intersection for over 50 years and the worst I have seen there is an eastbound driver treating it like a four-way stop. I hope we get to see robust traffic studies to back up the claims for a need to change it and comprehensive accident statistics showing a clear and present danger before anything more than better signage minor surface improvements are done. A four-way stop might cause difficulty for heavy eastbound vehicles in bad weather. A roundabout will definitely affect the adjacent properties adversely and impede walkers and cyclists, potentially chopping Welcome into isolated quarters and threatening foot traffic as vehicular traffic would no longer even hesitate when going through.

FIRST i love how you ask for our input but it clearly states tell us what option from our list you prefer. I say no to both
I drive thru this intersection many times in a week. I do not see any problem with the way it is set up.
I believe if you clearly mark (and keep them painted) the lanes as to the intentions of each lane. Signs that state it is a 3 way stop or even better the old 2 way stop which people clearly understand, you would hope is all that is needed. There is lots of farm traffic thru here and a roundabout will make it extremely hard to move from farm to farm. I have not seen or heard of an accident at this corner in years. Traffic lights will just back up the traffic even more and not sure where you would put the stop going eastbound as stopping up hill and trying to get going again will be very hard. but I am sure if you do this, there will be many many accidents there as people run the light or not see it. WHY FIX what is not broken. Tell us who these people were that suggested the change. Not the long time residents that have been able to maneuver this intersection no problem.

I have an idea, lets spend the money making a sidewalk from the town to Welcome or a bicycle lane all along County Rd 2.

Please prove that a round about is easy to use for all big equipment.
I sure hope the house that is so close to the road wouldn't find traffic thru the house. And we get to keep our nativity corner.

Please make it a roundabout - I've done much driving in England and they work safely - even 4 lane highways have roundabouts there

North/South not that busy - all that's needed here is a 2 way stop for north/south. Far cheaper than building a roundabout and a LOT less confusing than current set up. Current set up is definitely dangerous and I'm surprised there aren't more accidents at this location.

I’ve never seen a 3-way stop (with 4th way no stop) anywhere else. It’s so dangerous and confusing if you’re unfamiliar with the configuration. A roundabout is hands-down the best option! I’m sure there would be some grumbling till people got used to it, but well worth the effort.

Since I have moved here I have said this intersection needs to be a roundabout

I agree it needs re-grading, just adding a 4 way stop wouldn't fix this intersection. The road divides the community instead of bringing it together.

The intersection invites human error. A simple first step improvement would be 4-way stop signs and flashing lights. Safety does not need to be expensive and delayed by budget limitations.

I will not be able to attend to virtual meeting on the 14th. I have used this intersection for 30 years and it has never been a problem. There is very low traffic volume except on occasion when incidents on the 401 result in a detour on the roads involved. So, I don't understand why this need to invest an unknown amount of taxpayer dollars into changing or 'improving' this intersection. A roundabout would result in the loss of at least two private properties - have these homeowners been consulted? There is no background report on this page that concludes a feasibilty study is warranted. Please post this for public access.